The Big Fight
The big fight? How big it was can be better left to the audience, but one thing was certain. The fight was indeed over a trivial issue. The issue? It was the “system”. Let me introduce to you the topic of this debate-event first, which was named at par with some Sumo wrestling competition.
The topic was: CIVIL ENGINEERS AT IITM ARE ADEQUATELY PREPARED FOR PROFESSIONAL PRACTICE.
I doubt if such a topic can hardly lead to a so called “big fight” but believe me this fight (whichever way one viewed it, big or small) was at least interesting (especially in the later half when so many people started shooting so many questions at one another). And no it was not much of a mess. You could still figure out what was going on. It’s a different issue that this debate lost track most of the times form its topic (but then this was how it managed to be interesting, what say?).
I think someone did take an attempt at defining what exactly did “adequately” stood for. But it was just an attempt. It was left in the air and soon everyone peacefully forgot about the whole concept of adequacy. The debate soon shifted to how effective was the current ‘system’in preparing Civil Engineers who could be found useful by the Civil Engineering Industry. The for-guys firmly believed the ‘system’ was perfectly alright and was doing its job judiciously. One of them (who happens to be my classmate) even stated the mission of IIT and tried to make it clear the system was in sync with it. Alas, no one tried to make it clear what ‘system’ was being talked about. Some thought it meant the Civil Engineering Department consisting of the faculty while some thought it also included the students.
The word ‘system” sounds so good. I wonder if there really exists a system which is perfectly alright! This is such a basic thing. There’s nothing called perfect in this world. Everything has a flaw. The for-guys overlooked this fact like anything. The against-guys overemphasized the flaws like anything.
The debate took a slight deviation when suddenly ‘competition’ was quoted as a system-flaw by one of the against-the-topic guys (who once again, happens to be my classmate). He beautifully quoted Swami Vivekananda to support his hatred towards competition. Is competition that bad? It would have been better if he would have actually gone ahead and explained why competition was bad, than hiding behind a quote which was supposed to be blindly accepted. He did try to explain his stand about competition, albeit very vaguely and definitely at the cost of deviating further from the topic, by talking about suicides (which, according to him were mostly due to competition!!). I wonder if it was the same reason why Swami Vivekanand disapproved of competition. And I wonder if my friend had ever heard of something called “healthy competition”. May be a course or two in management could give him broader perspectives at things.
One more interesting point that was emphasized by the same friend of mine was about the teacher-student relationship. This one is indeed interesting but again not much related to the topic. The deteriorating relationship was quoted as yet another system flaw. For a moment even if this is accepted, who is really to be blamed for it? There was a Prof from the Geotechnical division who was absolutely sure that the only cause for all the flaws, were the students. He would have been surprised if somebody could have told him about one Prof from the Hydro Engineering Section, who very frankly had admitted in one of the first few classes of his (that was my third semester) that he didn’t give a damn whether students took interest in his course or not, they learnt or not. He had stated it very clearly that it was his job to teach and that was it. Statements like this hardly go anywhere in boosting a good relationship between us, the students, and dear Profs. Yes, agreed not all of them are same, but then the point it: Stop blaming the students like hell. Will you?
‘Attitude’ was heard throughout the event once this word had been introduced. Everyone seemed to agree there’s some problem with the attitude of the students in general. Is that a problem? Really? The truth is that attitude is merely a symptom of a deeply rooted problem. I wonder why both the teams saw symptoms as the problems themselves. What is the problem then? Where lays the flaw?
A fourth year undergraduate on the against-team disclosed a simple fact. The students (almost all of them) who are doing Civil Engineering in IIT are not doing it because they were interested in this particular branch of engineering but because all they wanted was to be in IIT and could not find a better branch out here. This is the problem. Here lays the flaw. And this is the only flaw that really matters for ‘adequate preparation for professional practice’. A Prof can always blame the lack of his students towards their branch and a student can always ask him without any hesitation that how come all sixty of his classmates who actually cracked a sexy tough exam, leaving behind thousands of others, suddenly lose interest in Civil Engineering. Did they really had any interest in Civil Engineering at the first place? And here comes the symptom; that sucking attitude that profs just don’t like. What else can they expect of those who know they are the best students around in India and yet give a damn to their branch?
The tragedy is that hardly anything can be done internally within the system to sort out this problem. The source of this problem is external. And any change in the system is hardly going to produce any result. If the outside world suddenly needs loads of Civil Engineers; if the people who are not a part of this system go crazy over Civil Engineers, everything will automatically turn alright. We can have debates and more of them and I am sure they are not going to lead anywhere unless the limitations of people inside the ‘system’ are understood. And that can be done only when the real problem is identified from among the symptoms.
The topic was: CIVIL ENGINEERS AT IITM ARE ADEQUATELY PREPARED FOR PROFESSIONAL PRACTICE.
I doubt if such a topic can hardly lead to a so called “big fight” but believe me this fight (whichever way one viewed it, big or small) was at least interesting (especially in the later half when so many people started shooting so many questions at one another). And no it was not much of a mess. You could still figure out what was going on. It’s a different issue that this debate lost track most of the times form its topic (but then this was how it managed to be interesting, what say?).
I think someone did take an attempt at defining what exactly did “adequately” stood for. But it was just an attempt. It was left in the air and soon everyone peacefully forgot about the whole concept of adequacy. The debate soon shifted to how effective was the current ‘system’in preparing Civil Engineers who could be found useful by the Civil Engineering Industry. The for-guys firmly believed the ‘system’ was perfectly alright and was doing its job judiciously. One of them (who happens to be my classmate) even stated the mission of IIT and tried to make it clear the system was in sync with it. Alas, no one tried to make it clear what ‘system’ was being talked about. Some thought it meant the Civil Engineering Department consisting of the faculty while some thought it also included the students.
The word ‘system” sounds so good. I wonder if there really exists a system which is perfectly alright! This is such a basic thing. There’s nothing called perfect in this world. Everything has a flaw. The for-guys overlooked this fact like anything. The against-guys overemphasized the flaws like anything.
The debate took a slight deviation when suddenly ‘competition’ was quoted as a system-flaw by one of the against-the-topic guys (who once again, happens to be my classmate). He beautifully quoted Swami Vivekananda to support his hatred towards competition. Is competition that bad? It would have been better if he would have actually gone ahead and explained why competition was bad, than hiding behind a quote which was supposed to be blindly accepted. He did try to explain his stand about competition, albeit very vaguely and definitely at the cost of deviating further from the topic, by talking about suicides (which, according to him were mostly due to competition!!). I wonder if it was the same reason why Swami Vivekanand disapproved of competition. And I wonder if my friend had ever heard of something called “healthy competition”. May be a course or two in management could give him broader perspectives at things.
One more interesting point that was emphasized by the same friend of mine was about the teacher-student relationship. This one is indeed interesting but again not much related to the topic. The deteriorating relationship was quoted as yet another system flaw. For a moment even if this is accepted, who is really to be blamed for it? There was a Prof from the Geotechnical division who was absolutely sure that the only cause for all the flaws, were the students. He would have been surprised if somebody could have told him about one Prof from the Hydro Engineering Section, who very frankly had admitted in one of the first few classes of his (that was my third semester) that he didn’t give a damn whether students took interest in his course or not, they learnt or not. He had stated it very clearly that it was his job to teach and that was it. Statements like this hardly go anywhere in boosting a good relationship between us, the students, and dear Profs. Yes, agreed not all of them are same, but then the point it: Stop blaming the students like hell. Will you?
‘Attitude’ was heard throughout the event once this word had been introduced. Everyone seemed to agree there’s some problem with the attitude of the students in general. Is that a problem? Really? The truth is that attitude is merely a symptom of a deeply rooted problem. I wonder why both the teams saw symptoms as the problems themselves. What is the problem then? Where lays the flaw?
A fourth year undergraduate on the against-team disclosed a simple fact. The students (almost all of them) who are doing Civil Engineering in IIT are not doing it because they were interested in this particular branch of engineering but because all they wanted was to be in IIT and could not find a better branch out here. This is the problem. Here lays the flaw. And this is the only flaw that really matters for ‘adequate preparation for professional practice’. A Prof can always blame the lack of his students towards their branch and a student can always ask him without any hesitation that how come all sixty of his classmates who actually cracked a sexy tough exam, leaving behind thousands of others, suddenly lose interest in Civil Engineering. Did they really had any interest in Civil Engineering at the first place? And here comes the symptom; that sucking attitude that profs just don’t like. What else can they expect of those who know they are the best students around in India and yet give a damn to their branch?
The tragedy is that hardly anything can be done internally within the system to sort out this problem. The source of this problem is external. And any change in the system is hardly going to produce any result. If the outside world suddenly needs loads of Civil Engineers; if the people who are not a part of this system go crazy over Civil Engineers, everything will automatically turn alright. We can have debates and more of them and I am sure they are not going to lead anywhere unless the limitations of people inside the ‘system’ are understood. And that can be done only when the real problem is identified from among the symptoms.
9 Comments:
@XYZ
No, I did not get pained by the mails reagarding the electives. And if you actually go ahead and read the comments to the blog "Electing an Elective", you will surely get to know who it was ( but then. only if you care to do so...)
And yes you seem to be right when you ask this: was I really interested in P C M? You sure got me here. I agree I mugged them the way I did, just to get here. Bingo! You are right.
In case you had been there to see "The Big Fight' in the ICSR, you would have known that it was actually some second year guy who asked Dr. Rajagopal, how could he (the student) accept that all of his classmates lost interest in mugging all of a sudden after joining Civil Eng? (All I did was quote him.)
And thanks a lot for accepting that I do have some talent.
Cheers!
Good one amrit, the whole topic of big fight must start just after asking one simple question to ourselves that is ‘can WE really handle the professional work in civil engineering with the B.tech course in iit ‘.....if you start bulbing to give the answer that is the answer...what do you say...
By mistake I was there for big fight some points in the big fight made me really !@#$$....that prof rajagopal explained what a professional is meant for and he confirmed the meaning by a single statement that when a job is given to a professional that’s all the job was done and no need to look again at any cost about that job .....and he states that no iitian can do a job like that.....what a prof then why is this B.tech degree meant for and why he is teaching... is this a professional institute or not.
one more point I just like to mention that everyone on the stage mentioned the attitude of the students is the root cause of this non-professional iitians (civil for the sake of topic) but before coming to iit everyone has a little attitude towards the subject that thing was considerably lost after coming her at least 60 percent of the students lost... everyone is sure that it is only because of some flaws in the system then how can we say that system is good enough to make professionals. This is just my view that’s all……
I don't want to mention anything about the above comment I know how you will take it so cheer up and keep posting ...may be a typical civil guy of our batch....bye ASH
Ashy sure has some points.
It's quite amusing to even expect the B.Techs or Duals to be 100% professionals the day they step into the real world. This is not what IIT is meant for.
IIT is meant to gather a bunch of best-brains and give them enough skills so that once they actually enter the professional arena, they learn things fast. And IIT surely does this.
No offence intended but I seriously think that Dr. Rajagopal was a confused man that day when he himeself said it was enough if we (the students) could be taught 'how to learn things' and yet thought that the IIT system was not good enough just because it did not make professionals out of us. Is a professional the one who only knows 'how to learn'? Or he/she the one who actually knows all about his/her profession?
I think IIT might be failing at producing straight-away professionals but it sure 'prepares' us to be professionals when the time comes.
Will try.
Thanks for encouraging me.
to all the viewers of this page me and amrit know who is xyz....by the way mr.xyz thank you very much for your valuable opinion.... and i just mentioned what he said thats all bye ASH
Dude xyz! Chill!
If you are so sure no one knows you, relax and have a nice time. It's between Ashok and me and I can anyways never proove who you are (even if we know). And that hardly matters.
So there's no point in revealing something which can never be proved and which doesn't even matter much.
But I am quite curious to know that why did you need to hide your identity at the first place? Your comments are are genuine.
good question amrit....ASH
I do not know whether your "there lies the flaw" had a touch of sarcasm to it. But I still feel thats really the biggest flaw we have. And yes, the profs defy cant take the I_care_shit_of_the_branch attitude.
The God2be a.k.a the fourth year undergrad on the against team.
No touch of sarcasm at all!
I support you on this. The main flaw is that the students are never much interested in Civil Engineering at the first place.
But I don't really mean to say this is the flaw in us. This is something which is dependent on things external to this system.
What the Profs see in their students is the attitude of the whole society that sits outside and sees the world. That is the cause for all that's going on inside. And that should be acknowledged.
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